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	<title>Comments on: An Ideological History Of Early Christianity</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/</link>
	<description>Not Your Grandfather&#039;s Conservatism</description>
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		<title>By: Isaac Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17763</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isaac Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17763</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m glad you enjoyed it. &quot;short&quot; -&gt; hah, I love this part of the internet. Anything over 1000 words is too hefty for most people...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you enjoyed it. &#8220;short&#8221; -&gt; hah, I love this part of the internet. Anything over 1000 words is too hefty for most people&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Alf</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17760</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17760</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very elucidating post, thanks.

&quot;After the Council of Nicaea, the Church authorised a proto-Bible, which justified the authority of the Church. Thus Church and Bible formed a self-maintaining system and, from then on, remained remarkably consistent.&quot;

The council of Nicaea is such an important watershed, for better or worse. To credibly &#039;holify&#039; a person on intellectual base is an achievement that I don&#039;t see Moldbug&#039;s cathedral replicating, no matter how many candidates are pushed in the spotlight (Ghandi / Obama / MLK). Progressivism lacks a credible anchor. Or credibility, for that matter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very elucidating post, thanks.</p>
<p>&#8220;After the Council of Nicaea, the Church authorised a proto-Bible, which justified the authority of the Church. Thus Church and Bible formed a self-maintaining system and, from then on, remained remarkably consistent.&#8221;</p>
<p>The council of Nicaea is such an important watershed, for better or worse. To credibly &#8216;holify&#8217; a person on intellectual base is an achievement that I don&#8217;t see Moldbug&#8217;s cathedral replicating, no matter how many candidates are pushed in the spotlight (Ghandi / Obama / MLK). Progressivism lacks a credible anchor. Or credibility, for that matter.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Isaac Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17757</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isaac Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do you mean the section &quot;era one&quot;? Can you say more?

AFAIK there aren&#039;t many outside sources on Christianity of that era aside from Acts or speculation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you mean the section &#8220;era one&#8221;? Can you say more?</p>
<p>AFAIK there aren&#8217;t many outside sources on Christianity of that era aside from Acts or speculation.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Isaac Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17756</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isaac Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17756</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Translating your 2nd paragraph into rationalist terminology: I&#039;d say a non-&lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/a&gt; concept works better as a schelling point and for signalling purposes. E.g., one could rationally believe in a deistic first-cause God (as the founders of the US did), but then the fact that someone believes that doesn&#039;t tell you much, they might just believe it because they regard it as common-sense (and stop believing it when new evidence comes in). Trinitarianism is something you can&#039;t derive from first principles, you believe it because you follow the Church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Translating your 2nd paragraph into rationalist terminology: I&#8217;d say a non-<i>a priori concept works better as a schelling point and for signalling purposes. E.g., one could rationally believe in a deistic first-cause God (as the founders of the US did), but then the fact that someone believes that doesn&#8217;t tell you much, they might just believe it because they regard it as common-sense (and stop believing it when new evidence comes in). Trinitarianism is something you can&#8217;t derive from first principles, you believe it because you follow the Church.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Isaac Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17754</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isaac Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17754</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@grimlocke: I&#039;d say the Trinity is very easily *misunderstood*. 

It certainly changed my impression of ancients that they managed to keep all these subtle distinctions &lt;i&gt;distinct&lt;/i&gt;. (Before stumbling across the alt-right and the Orthosphere, the main forms of Christianity I&#039;d experienced were wooly liberal Anglicanism IRL and anti-intellectual evangelical fundies online).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@grimlocke: I&#8217;d say the Trinity is very easily *misunderstood*. </p>
<p>It certainly changed my impression of ancients that they managed to keep all these subtle distinctions <i>distinct</i>. (Before stumbling across the alt-right and the Orthosphere, the main forms of Christianity I&#8217;d experienced were wooly liberal Anglicanism IRL and anti-intellectual evangelical fundies online).</p>
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		<title>By: Isaac Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17753</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isaac Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The spirit/flesh separation would be an interesting trail to explore. Nietzsche made a lot of it in his criticism of Christianity, but there were some interesting debates early on regarding e.g. the exact relationship between Jesus&#039; human and divine natures.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The spirit/flesh separation would be an interesting trail to explore. Nietzsche made a lot of it in his criticism of Christianity, but there were some interesting debates early on regarding e.g. the exact relationship between Jesus&#8217; human and divine natures.</p>
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		<title>By: Isaac Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17752</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isaac Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, and they&#039;re good nits.

1. Interesting, and it makes Paul even more of an interesting figure. 

2. Good catch, this was a plain mistake on my part.

3. The Gnosticism-Catharism relationship I got from the &quot;What if Arianism had won?&quot; lecture, linked above. Yeah, like New Agery, Gnosticism seems like a set of beliefs which spring up independently in many places.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, and they&#8217;re good nits.</p>
<p>1. Interesting, and it makes Paul even more of an interesting figure. </p>
<p>2. Good catch, this was a plain mistake on my part.</p>
<p>3. The Gnosticism-Catharism relationship I got from the &#8220;What if Arianism had won?&#8221; lecture, linked above. Yeah, like New Agery, Gnosticism seems like a set of beliefs which spring up independently in many places.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Isaac Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17751</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isaac Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17751</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the detailed reply. I wasn&#039;t aware of the controversy over the term *presbyter* (in other places I was aware of a controversy but chose to elide it, otherwise an already-long 6000+ words of history would have turned into 10000+ words of historiography). I did intentionally elide over the historicity of Jesus and the reliability of the gospels vis-a-vis proving the actual validity of Christianity, as I wanted to look at the history without that particular debate. (In my point of view, and contrary to Dawkins et al, I think it&#039;s perfectly consistent to see the gospels as gospel. (Personally I think it&#039;s more likely a combination of halo effect + the human tendency to fake evidence in favour of something you do believe - people do this for UFO sightings, virgin-mary-sightings, etc)).

I ended up watching a ton of those LutheranSatire videos, good stuff, and I enjoyed the talk he gave on &quot;theology punches&quot; i.e. righteous anger in favour of truth. &#039;Tis why I included the nod to intellectually rigorous Christians. Traditionalist protestants like he and yourself certainly have a hard job preserving doctrine in face of the RCC to one side and liberal protestants to the other...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the detailed reply. I wasn&#8217;t aware of the controversy over the term *presbyter* (in other places I was aware of a controversy but chose to elide it, otherwise an already-long 6000+ words of history would have turned into 10000+ words of historiography). I did intentionally elide over the historicity of Jesus and the reliability of the gospels vis-a-vis proving the actual validity of Christianity, as I wanted to look at the history without that particular debate. (In my point of view, and contrary to Dawkins et al, I think it&#8217;s perfectly consistent to see the gospels as gospel. (Personally I think it&#8217;s more likely a combination of halo effect + the human tendency to fake evidence in favour of something you do believe &#8211; people do this for UFO sightings, virgin-mary-sightings, etc)).</p>
<p>I ended up watching a ton of those LutheranSatire videos, good stuff, and I enjoyed the talk he gave on &#8220;theology punches&#8221; i.e. righteous anger in favour of truth. &#8216;Tis why I included the nod to intellectually rigorous Christians. Traditionalist protestants like he and yourself certainly have a hard job preserving doctrine in face of the RCC to one side and liberal protestants to the other&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Anglican Minarchist</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17682</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anglican Minarchist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good question.  Not exactly.  I believe it is possible to have an imperfect human understanding, and that the doctrine of the Trinity is, while imperfect, the best that theology has done so far in understanding the nature of God.  It is possible to &quot;misunderstand&quot; it, in that you can be definitely wrong about it.  What&#039;s not possible given our human limitations is to be 100% right about it.

Atomic theory is a pretty good analogy.  For a while chemistry and physics thought that protons, neutrons, and electrons were the fundamental particles; then we discovered quarks.  Since then, the standard model has predicted all kinds of strange subatomic particles.  But when you learn high school and college chemistry, the proton-neutron-electron model is still quite good enough under normal conditions.  It is accurate as far as it goes, but incomplete.  I believe the Nicene-Chalcedonian doctrine of the Trinity is accurate as defined by the church catholic, but incomplete.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good question.  Not exactly.  I believe it is possible to have an imperfect human understanding, and that the doctrine of the Trinity is, while imperfect, the best that theology has done so far in understanding the nature of God.  It is possible to &#8220;misunderstand&#8221; it, in that you can be definitely wrong about it.  What&#8217;s not possible given our human limitations is to be 100% right about it.</p>
<p>Atomic theory is a pretty good analogy.  For a while chemistry and physics thought that protons, neutrons, and electrons were the fundamental particles; then we discovered quarks.  Since then, the standard model has predicted all kinds of strange subatomic particles.  But when you learn high school and college chemistry, the proton-neutron-electron model is still quite good enough under normal conditions.  It is accurate as far as it goes, but incomplete.  I believe the Nicene-Chalcedonian doctrine of the Trinity is accurate as defined by the church catholic, but incomplete.</p>
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		<title>By: grimlocke</title>
		<link>http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/28/an-ideological-history-of-early-christianity/#comment-17654</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[grimlocke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2015 04:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialmatter.net/?p=2463#comment-17654</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;The doctrine of the Trinity is very, very subtle. I find that most people who dismiss it are misunderstanding some part of it. 

Are you saying it can be &quot;understood&quot;?  Post enlightenment, most high IQ Europeans, Americans (e.g. Founding Fathers) barely paid lip service to the Trinity... precisely because of its impenetrability.

I do believe in it but beyond simple analogies, it will always remain cloaked in mystery to mere mortals.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;The doctrine of the Trinity is very, very subtle. I find that most people who dismiss it are misunderstanding some part of it. </p>
<p>Are you saying it can be &#8220;understood&#8221;?  Post enlightenment, most high IQ Europeans, Americans (e.g. Founding Fathers) barely paid lip service to the Trinity&#8230; precisely because of its impenetrability.</p>
<p>I do believe in it but beyond simple analogies, it will always remain cloaked in mystery to mere mortals.</p>
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